The Gazette 1996

GAZETTE

JANUARY/FEBRUARY 1996

colleagues before finalising that section of the Courts and Court Offices Bill which covers this particular issue. This follows Tuesday's all Party support for amendments to the Bill which would open the higher benches to solicitors. The Bar Council has reacted strongly, urging the Minister not to amend the Bill and calling for a debate. So let's have a debate right now. Alan Shatter TD, who proposed one of the amendments, is in studio, and on the line is James Nugent of the Bar Council. Good morning to you both. Now first of all James Nugent , why shouldn't solicitors become High Court and Supreme Court judges? If you could make it as brief as possible.

James Nugent:

court day after day who should at the end of their process be put in the position of having to adjudicate on literally matters of life and death.

I don't want to in any way, I have a huge admiration for the solicitors' profession, I should add I am married to a solicitor, my mother was a solicitor, and I'm not in any way trying to denigrate them, but what I am saying is that our job, and our training and our daily life, it is conducive to leading on to what is an awesome responsibility, that is being a judge of the High or of the Supreme Court.

David Hanly:

Alright, well let me put that straight now to Alan Shatter, who as I said was one of those who proposed one of the amendments and who has accused you of wishing to protect your patch and holding on to what he calls colonial law. These are harsh criticisms Alan Shatter, what do you make of what James Nugent has just said?

Alan Shatter:

Well firstly I'm not going to in any way personally attack James, good morning James, we know each other for many years.

James Nugent: (Bar Council)

Well I was just going to say you called for a debate David and in the time available we won't be able to have that. But very briefly, what we're

James Nugent:

talking about here isn't whether solicitors or barristers should or shouldn't do anything, we're

Good morning Alan, indeed.

David Hanly:

talking about the administration of justice, of peoples' rights, who is to determine even their right to life as we saw in the 'X' case and the girl who was in the near vegetative state, we're talking about rights to liberty. Now what is the best possible training for the person who is to determine those rights? That's what we're talking about when you're talking about the higher courts, and I believe that the best possible training for somebody who is charged with that awesome responsibility is somebody who has spent a lifetime involved in the work of the courts on a daily basis.

This is far too cosy.

Alan Shatter TD

Alan Shatter:

David Hanly:

I'm afraid I don't accept anything that James though is saying on the issue. Since 1971 solicitors have had a right of audience in all our courts from, all the way through from the District Court to the Supreme Court, there are four and a half thousand practising solicitors in this country, there are less than nine hundred barristers, I'm not interested in fighting a battle on behalf of any particular vested interest, I mean everyone knows I'm a solicitor but I'm not interested in fighting the battle per se for solicitors or fighting the battle for or against barristers, what I'm interested in as a legislator is the public interest and I'm saying that the public, the general - public has an interest in the widest possible pool of practising lawyers being available to Government to choose judges. As matters stand at present only 15% of practising lawyers are available for appointment to the High Court or Supreme Court, there's nothing in any way remotely

And you say that that doesn't amount to not being up to it where solicitors are concerned.

James Nugent:

Well I don't, I mean not being up to it seems to imply that solicitors are some way deficient, there are splendid people, you know, you are as splendid at your job but I do not think that it would be appropriate that you would be appointed to the High or the Supreme Court.

David Hanly:

So what you're saying in effect, if I may put it rather more bluntly than you did yourself, is that solicitors are not up to it.

David Hanly:

Nor do I but I'm not a lawyer at all.

James Nugent:

James Nugent:

Ah no David

No, but you see for a job like this you have to have, I mean it can only be someone who is homed in the fire of

David Hanly:

Well by training they're not.

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