The Gazette 1971

would lead to the expulsion of the greater part of

the human race, if not the entire world. Accordingly,

the first aim of humanity in general should be to do

away with wars. Negotiations have been going on for

nine years now for complete and general disarmament,

and so far little or no progress has been made because

of major, powers. They have refused to allow themselves

to limit their armaments or subject themselves to inter-

national control.

"There are several different aspects to the outlawing

of weapons, the first being to get agreement that biol-

ogical and nuclear weapons will not be used. The next

is to enforce that agreement. The sad feature of the

present situation is that while governments profess

to want peace and general disarmament, they do

nothing to ensure it. But important developments have

taken place with regard to the religious of he world.

A most important conference was held in Austria when

Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches examined

all the problems of peace, disarmament and human

rights. There was a great measure of agreement at this

conference. This was followed by another which in-

cluded all the Churches of the world, Muslims, Hindus,

Shintus and Christians. The conference was held in

Japan at the end of last year and they are now going

to engage in a world-wide campaign in favour of dis-

armament and in favour of peace throughout the

world."

Did he recognise die rights of objectors of conscience?

"Certainly, and this right has been recognised

specifically by the Conference of Christian Churches

and by the Conference of all Churches held in Japan.

They decided that the exercise of conscientious judg-

ment is inherent in the dignity of human beings, and

accordingly each person should have the right on

grounds of conscience or profound convictions to refuse

military service or any other direct or indirect par-

ticipation in wars or armed conflict. The right of

conscientious objection also extends to those who are

unwilling to serve in a particular war because they

consider it unjust, or because they refuse to participate

in a war or conflict in which weapons of mass destruc-

tion are likely to be used. The conference also consid-

ered that members of armed forces have the right, and

even the duty, to refuse to obey military orders which

may involve them in the commission of criminal offcnces

or war crimes or crimes against humanity."

Did he believe that in time of war, those taking no

part should receive humane treatment?

"Yes, indeed. This is provided for by the Geneva

Conventions, but unfortunately those conventions are

not being applied. That is why a number of inter-

national organisations such as Amnesty International,

the International Commission of Jurists, International

Peace Bureau, World Federation, United Nations

Associations and most of the organisations involved

in human rights work are agreed on the need to estab-

lish within the framework of United Nations a perman-

ent body to investigate complaints of violations of the

Geneva and Hague Conventions. At a meeting recently

in Geneva of all the non-Government organisations, a

proposal was adopted to this effect asking the United

Nations to set up such a body."

Should there be an international Criminal Court

to deal with war crimes?

"That, of course, is the ideal. After the last war there

was a special tribunal set up in Nuremburg to try the

German leaders of war crimes and crimes against

humanity.

"This tribunal suffered from many defects. First of

all, it was set up after the war by the victors to try

the vanquished, which is never a good basis. However,

it was recognised that a time had been reached in

which society should be protected against war crimes

and against crimes against humanity. After the war

the United Nations asked the Law Commission to

define a number of principles, which could be applied

for the establishment of such a tribunal. Those prin-

ciples are now known as the Nuremburg Principles but

they have nothing to do with the Nuremburg trials.

It is very desirable that such a tribunal be set up, but

unfortunately, in the present climate I do not see it

possible. I cannot see the United States or Russia

agreeing to it, and they dominate the world between

them at the moment. When it comes to any question

of outlawing nuclear weapons or setting up a tribunal

to deal with war crimes, they usually agree to oppose

it altogether."

In a time of emergency there is a suspension of

human rights. Did you see this happening in die North ?

"In the North, the problem is that there is undoubt-

edly a situation where it would be very hard to insist

on the application of all the provisions of the con-

ception on human rights. It is a case situation. But

the convention does provide that even in a case of

grave emergency, the extent to which any of these

rights can be limited is very narrow. They cannot be

restricted beyond the immediate exigency of the situ-

ation. So at the moment, I do not see the European

convention being able to play very much of a role in

the situation in the Six Counties.

"Where I think the European Convention could

play an important role is in the discussion of resolutions.

Both Ireland and Great Britain, of which the Six

Counties forms a part, are members of the European

Convention. The Convention sets out in detail the

rights which are guaranteed by it, the rights which all

members or parties to the convention have agreed to

guarantee to the people in their jurisdiction. This

might form a very useful basis of agreement as to what

are the minimum rights which should be guaranteed

by the British Government in the Six Counties and by

the Irish Government in the 26 Counties. There is

an* agreement on this. Both Governments have signed

these conventions. Therefore, there is a basis of existing

agreement there.

"It seems to me this could be very usefully extended

to provide an agreed basis for co-operation on both

sides of the Border, to ensure that at least those rights

are safeguarded. The European Convention also pro-

vides other useful provisions. It contains machinery

for the protection of those rights and there is the

European Commission for the protection of human

rights, and the European Court for the protection of

human rights. Those two bodies could be charged with

supervision of any agreement entered into between

Belfast and Dublin in regard to the application of the

rights guaranteed by the European Convention."

The Irish times

(May 1971)